160. How to Say No Without Being a Jerk: Conflict, Culture & Building a Backbone with Dr. Jen Fry
Wed Feb 04 2026
What if saying "no" could actually strengthen your relationships—and your business?
In this episode, Hayleigh sits down with Dr. Jen Fry—former college volleyball coach turned professional speaker, PhD, and tech entrepreneur—to discuss the art of setting boundaries, navigating conflict, and building a business with backbone.
Jen shares her journey from coaching for 15 years to becoming a sought-after speaker on conflict and culture, launching a tech startup (Cordal), and writing her book I Said No: How to Have a Backbone and Boundaries Without Being a Jerk.
In this conversation, you'll discover:
Why people-pleasing is actually being unreliableHow to practice "micro advocacy" to build your no muscleThe real cost of resentment in business decisionsWhy validation of your idea doesn't guarantee revenueThe humbling truth about starting a tech companyHow to know when you "hate it enough" to make the leapWhether you're struggling to set boundaries with clients, contemplating your next business pivot, or just need permission to stop people-pleasing, this episode will leave you feeling empowered to advocate for yourself—without the guilt.
About Jen Fry:
Dr. Jen Fry is a professional speaker, author, PhD in sport geography, and founder of Cordal, a group travel coordination tech platform. After 15 years as a college volleyball coach, Jen pivoted to professional speaking in 2019, focusing on conflict navigation and cultural transformation. Her book I Said No: How to Have a Backbone and Boundaries Without Being a Jerk is available now. Jen is known for her direct, compassionate approach to helping people—especially women—advocate for themselves fearlessly.
Connect with Jen:
Website: JenFryTalks.comBook: I Said No (available on her website with stickers and swag, or on Amazon/Barnes & Noble)Social Media: @JenFryTalks on all platforms3 Action Steps from This Episode:
Know your relationships are worth conflict. Conflict shows us the depth of our relationships—avoiding it keeps you surface-level.
Your first "no" is the easiest. When you say no to someone, prepare for others to try to change your mind. Have a plan and hold your boundary.
You're always healed until you go home. Practice leaving situations where people make you uncomfortable—you don't owe anyone your presence when they're unkind.
Connect with me, Hayleigh Hayhurst:
Steal my Podcast Launch Checklist for free: https://www.espressopodcastproduction.com/checklist
Website: https://www.espressopodcastproduction.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EspressoPodcastProduction
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/espressopodcastproduction/
Music: John Kiernan. www.johnkiernanmusic.com
Produced by Espresso Podcast Production: https://www.espressopodcastproduction.com/
Join the Conversation: What did you think of this episode? Share your thoughts and key takeaways with me on social media using the hashtag #EmployeeToBoss. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and share it with your network.
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What if saying "no" could actually strengthen your relationships—and your business? In this episode, Hayleigh sits down with Dr. Jen Fry—former college volleyball coach turned professional speaker, PhD, and tech entrepreneur—to discuss the art of setting boundaries, navigating conflict, and building a business with backbone. Jen shares her journey from coaching for 15 years to becoming a sought-after speaker on conflict and culture, launching a tech startup (Cordal), and writing her book I Said No: How to Have a Backbone and Boundaries Without Being a Jerk. In this conversation, you'll discover: Why people-pleasing is actually being unreliableHow to practice "micro advocacy" to build your no muscleThe real cost of resentment in business decisionsWhy validation of your idea doesn't guarantee revenueThe humbling truth about starting a tech companyHow to know when you "hate it enough" to make the leapWhether you're struggling to set boundaries with clients, contemplating your next business pivot, or just need permission to stop people-pleasing, this episode will leave you feeling empowered to advocate for yourself—without the guilt. About Jen Fry: Dr. Jen Fry is a professional speaker, author, PhD in sport geography, and founder of Cordal, a group travel coordination tech platform. After 15 years as a college volleyball coach, Jen pivoted to professional speaking in 2019, focusing on conflict navigation and cultural transformation. Her book I Said No: How to Have a Backbone and Boundaries Without Being a Jerk is available now. Jen is known for her direct, compassionate approach to helping people—especially women—advocate for themselves fearlessly. Connect with Jen: Website: JenFryTalks.comBook: I Said No (available on her website with stickers and swag, or on Amazon/Barnes & Noble)Social Media: @JenFryTalks on all platforms3 Action Steps from This Episode: Know your relationships are worth conflict. Conflict shows us the depth of our relationships—avoiding it keeps you surface-level. Your first "no" is the easiest. When you say no to someone, prepare for others to try to change your mind. Have a plan and hold your boundary. You're always healed until you go home. Practice leaving situations where people make you uncomfortable—you don't owe anyone your presence when they're unkind. Connect with me, Hayleigh Hayhurst: Steal my Podcast Launch Checklist for free: https://www.espressopodcastproduction.com/checklist Website: https://www.espressopodcastproduction.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@EspressoPodcastProduction Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/espressopodcastproduction/ Music: John Kiernan. www.johnkiernanmusic.com Produced by Espresso Podcast Production: https://www.espressopodcastproduction.com/ Join the Conversation: What did you think of this episode? Share your thoughts and key takeaways with me on social media using the hashtag #EmployeeToBoss. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and share it with your network.