216: The Machine Layer - Building Trust in the Age of AI Search with Duane Forrester
Wed Feb 04 2026
Duane Forrester, 30-year search veteran who co-launched Schema.org and built Bing Webmaster Tools, explains why AI systems prioritize trust above all else. We discuss machine comfort bias, chunk-level content optimization, why SEO is now a multidisciplinary role, and how to prepare for a world where LLMs decide who gets cited.
About the Guest
Duane Forrester is the author of "The Machine Layer" and search industry pioneer
30 years in search and digital strategySenior Product Manager at Microsoft - built Bing Webmaster ToolsCo-launched Schema.org structured data standardLeadership roles at Bruce Clay Inc. and YextFounder of Unbound Answers, creator of CitationIQChapters
00:00 - Intro01:01 - The biggest shift SEO has ever seen03:30 - Machine Comfort Bias: the 5 layers of trust09:19 - Chunking: writing for AI and humans16:01 - Making content citation-ready18:35 - Schema.org: the trust infrastructure25:46 - Ironman vs Superman: AI as amplifier, not savior32:28 - EEAT, Universal Verifiers, and why trust is everything42:59 - Latent Choice Signals: the invisible metrics52:35 - The Machine Layer book57:53 - Emerging roles in AI discoverability01:01:16 - Where to find DuaneKey Takeaways
Trust is the new algorithm - LLMs need multiple dimensions of verification before citing you. If you can provide everything they need without them having to guess, they'll lean into that "machine comfort bias"Chunking matters, but not how you think - Don't reformat your entire page into 300-word blocks. Instead, put key facts, figures, and bullet points at the top. LLMs get "lost in the middle" of long-form contentBe the canonical source - Your goal isn't rankings, it's being seen as THE source of knowledge on your topic. If you haven't expanded the LLM's training data with net new information, you won't be citedSEO is now multidisciplinary - Technical SEOs must understand branding, conversion, engagement, PR, and UX. Silos are killing companies in the AI discovery layerAI is Ironman, not Superman - These systems amplify your skills but require you to drive them. Hope is not a strategy. Always ask self-referencing questions to verify outputsLLMs want to save money - They won't waste tokens looking elsewhere if you provide everything they need. Consistency and trust reduce their computational costsResources Mentioned
Duane's Work
Book: The Machine Layer - Available on Amazon (Kindle & Paperback)Website: duaneforrester.com - Free frameworks from the book availableSubstack: duaneforresterdecodes.substack.comLinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dforresterConnect with No Hacks
Website: https://nohackspod.comNewsletter: Subscribe for weekly episodesNo Hacks is a podcast about web performance, technical SEO, and the agentic web. Hosted by Slobodan "Sani" Manic.
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Duane Forrester, 30-year search veteran who co-launched Schema.org and built Bing Webmaster Tools, explains why AI systems prioritize trust above all else. We discuss machine comfort bias, chunk-level content optimization, why SEO is now a multidisciplinary role, and how to prepare for a world where LLMs decide who gets cited. About the Guest Duane Forrester is the author of "The Machine Layer" and search industry pioneer 30 years in search and digital strategySenior Product Manager at Microsoft - built Bing Webmaster ToolsCo-launched Schema.org structured data standardLeadership roles at Bruce Clay Inc. and YextFounder of Unbound Answers, creator of CitationIQChapters 00:00 - Intro01:01 - The biggest shift SEO has ever seen03:30 - Machine Comfort Bias: the 5 layers of trust09:19 - Chunking: writing for AI and humans16:01 - Making content citation-ready18:35 - Schema.org: the trust infrastructure25:46 - Ironman vs Superman: AI as amplifier, not savior32:28 - EEAT, Universal Verifiers, and why trust is everything42:59 - Latent Choice Signals: the invisible metrics52:35 - The Machine Layer book57:53 - Emerging roles in AI discoverability01:01:16 - Where to find DuaneKey Takeaways Trust is the new algorithm - LLMs need multiple dimensions of verification before citing you. If you can provide everything they need without them having to guess, they'll lean into that "machine comfort bias"Chunking matters, but not how you think - Don't reformat your entire page into 300-word blocks. Instead, put key facts, figures, and bullet points at the top. LLMs get "lost in the middle" of long-form contentBe the canonical source - Your goal isn't rankings, it's being seen as THE source of knowledge on your topic. If you haven't expanded the LLM's training data with net new information, you won't be citedSEO is now multidisciplinary - Technical SEOs must understand branding, conversion, engagement, PR, and UX. Silos are killing companies in the AI discovery layerAI is Ironman, not Superman - These systems amplify your skills but require you to drive them. Hope is not a strategy. Always ask self-referencing questions to verify outputsLLMs want to save money - They won't waste tokens looking elsewhere if you provide everything they need. Consistency and trust reduce their computational costsResources Mentioned Duane's Work Book: The Machine Layer - Available on Amazon (Kindle & Paperback)Website: duaneforrester.com - Free frameworks from the book availableSubstack: duaneforresterdecodes.substack.comLinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dforresterConnect with No Hacks Website: https://nohackspod.comNewsletter: Subscribe for weekly episodesNo Hacks is a podcast about web performance, technical SEO, and the agentic web. Hosted by Slobodan "Sani" Manic.